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Using HIIT to increase plasticity.

Andrew

I have read about the following topic a few times.

It is that neuroplasticity happens more when one is trying to do something new, such as learning a language or dancing the tango, assuming that these were not part of your repertoire beforehand! Apparently our brain was awash with the protein or gene BDNF (see my first post, above) when we were very young and when learning things like languages and the tango were essentially effortless. It sort of happened naturally and with little effort. But that window has long-since closed, and the learning of something new can take much more effort.

Deliberately and consistently doing something new increases the production of BDNF and has the by-product of increasing neuroplasticity above what we might expect even by meaningful repetition ad nauseam.

So the question is: do I learn to dance the tango? My wife was a keen dancer in her youth, which is good, but I will have to smile and look the part as well as move! Moving in the right way could be interesting, but looking the part might need some mental readjustment. Hmmm…I shall have to discuss this with her.

Pando

Andrew Absolutely, Andrew, go for the Tango. I remember the remapping of my arm after stroke. I had to wait 10 days for BDNF to do its thing ; the cleanup period, after the blood/brain barrier repairs ⅔ days. BDNF is released in abundance & gets busy repairing the damaged areas. BDNF also promotes survival of neurons by activating anti-apoptotic pathways. I first read about it in “Stronger after Stroke”… a good book, even if I don’t agree with all of it. New things are great, as is a tango; plain exercise too, will increase BDNF. I’m considering trying HBOT at ATA 2.0. For now, just working on improving standing on my 1 (affected) foot engages 100% of my brain; I’m mentally exhausted after a few seconds of this ! Getting a rebounder too, and the bikes off to be serviced today… if I get through any of that, then bring on the Tangos.
ciao, R

Andrew

Pando Thank you for this Roland.

A few questions follow naturally, partly to do with self-interest, and partly for others who do not believe quite as strongly in neuroplasticity.

What characterises BDNF doing its thing? By this I mean, do you know that it has happened only after the event, or do you know during the process? Is it like practicing difficult passages on the violin, such as the opening solo for Beethoven’s Romance in G where things just gradually become easier to do, and that process is slightly different for different people? In other words, is it a slow process (i.e. slower than daily) and things just gradually get better?

What is the cleanup period? My imagination ran riot with this one!

The blood-brain barrier - in all of my reading I haven’t come across this mentioned explicitly. Sorry for being stupid, or at least appearing so, but can you expand on this?

I have found a very cheap version of “Stronger after Stroke” on Amazon. It should arrive in a few days.

I am very fortunate in that I can now walk both far and quickly. So hopefully there a background supply of BDNF. The trike helps - I even managed to go from Warmley to Keynsham the other day, although I had to get on the road by the bridge at Bitton. This was the first time trying a standard pavement - it was quite bumpy and narrow in places!

So I am trying to apportion small chunks of the day to different things in order to try to avoid the worst of neurofatigue.

Pando

Andrew
My Radiologist friend explained to me about the initial “cleanup” as he called it, that goes on… blood / brain barrier repair etc

I’m not a Scientist, so I asked Deep Seek AI
“BDNF immediately after hemorrhagic stroke”
to which it replied,
Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor (BDNF) plays a complex role immediately after a hemorrhagic stroke (intracerebral hemorrhage, ICH). Here’s what current research suggests:

1. Early Changes in BDNF Levels

Acute Decrease: Some studies indicate that BDNF levels may drop sharply in the first hours to days after a hemorrhagic stroke due to:
- Neuronal damage and cell death in the affected brain region.
  - Inflammatory responses (microglial activation, cytokine release) that suppress BDNF production.
  - Oxidative stress and excitotoxicity impairing BDNF signaling.
Possible Increase in Some Cases: In peripheral blood or surrounding brain areas, BDNF might transiently rise as a compensatory neuroprotective response.

2. Role of BDNF in Neuroprotection & Recovery

Promotes Survival: BDNF supports neuronal survival by activating anti-apoptotic pathways (via TrkB receptor signaling).
Enhances Plasticity: It aids synaptic plasticity and axonal sprouting, which are critical for early recovery.
Modulates Inflammation: BDNF may help regulate neuroinflammation, though its effects can be context-dependent.

3. Clinical Implications

Prognostic Marker: Low serum BDNF levels post-stroke may correlate with worse neurological outcomes.
Therapeutic Potential:
- Exercise & Rehabilitation: Early physical activity may boost BDNF, aiding recovery.
  - Pharmacological Approaches: Drugs that enhance BDNF (e.g., SSRIs, ampakines) are under investigation but require careful timing due to risks of exacerbating bleeding or edema.
  - Stem Cell Therapy: Some approaches aim to deliver BDNF-secreting cells to the injury site.

4. Challenges & Unknowns

Timing Matters: Immediate post-stroke BDNF supplementation might have different effects than delayed administration.
Blood-Brain Barrier (BBB) Disruption: Hemorrhagic stroke damages the BBB, potentially altering BDNF transport.
Interaction with Hematoma: Blood breakdown products (e.g., iron, heme) might interfere with BDNF signaling.

Key Takeaway

BDNF is crucial for neuroprotection and recovery after hemorrhagic stroke, but its dynamics are complex. While boosting BDNF early may be beneficial, more research is needed to determine optimal strategies without exacerbating secondary injury.

Would you like details on specific studies or therapeutic interventions?

Andrew

Pando Many thanks. I will need to read this and read further.

Andrew

Andrew Hi Roland,

Thanks again for the info regarding BDNF. I’m a bit out of my depth here because this is human biology rather than fluid mechanics! However, here are my responses to your list, although I am not 100% sure…

The 1st item was to do with early responses, but that is now some while back, and there is now nothing I can do to affect things then. All I will say is that I have only come across BDNF in the last few weeks, even though it has been known about for some while, and even in elite athletic circles! Where were the therapists and medics, then? Should I have known much earlier?

2nd item. I have definitely heard of this! Indeed BDNF also causes recovery now, not just in the early stages, and also some years down the line too.

With regard to survival, I guess that this has or hasn’t happened for the vast majority of neurons, so perhaps I won’t worry about this!

With regard to inflammation, I honestly thought that I was free of this. Courtesy of Michael Mosley, I adoped the use of home-made yoghurt and kimchi at the start of the pandemic to improve the gut biome and my general response to infection and inflamation. It certainly worked, at least in the sense that I didn’t get covid! I also quite like these foodstuffs, so it wasn’t purgatory. However, my recent trip to the dentist for some root canal work has uncovered some inflammation inside the tooth. Pigs. Hopefully I shall be clear when he resumes treatment. I guess that this isn’t neuroinflammation, but who knows?

3rd item. I will only comment on the use of exercise to boost BDNF levels. Over the last year I have become fitter gradually. From being with a frame or in a wheelchair when I left hospital to now has seen a huge change in activity and fitness levels. So from that point of view my BDNF levels ought to be good, but I don’t know how to measure that. Elyse Newlands is very much of the opinion that HIIT increases the BDNF levels over and above whatever they are without HIIT. I have also read that the adoption of new activites does that some more. So when the brain needs it, BDNF gets generated in response. Hopefully I am right!

So I have adopted some new balance exercises with this all in mind. I have no idea how long this takes for neuroplasticity to become effective and, of course, no-one can say. My view is that neuroplasticity is the same as learning. An exemplar is the changes in the brain brought about by musical practice - something that was formerly impossible eventually becomes not only possible but eventually becomes second nature. This transformation always involves changes somewhere in the brain.

Simon

Andrew about for some while, and even in elite athletic circles! Where were the therapists and medics, then? Should I have known much earlier?

I think this is the case with the whole of stroke medicine. We the survivors are as able to frame questions to which the answers are not yet known as any one who earns a living in the space. But we have a greater intrinsic motivation to see the answers my great into actual practise

I think this is where sick SIG and the many other groups that exist should have a better representation within the whole of the research pathways

Andrew view is that neuroplasticity is the same as learning. An exemplar

I don’t think that is quite right and I ask the question and got the answer

"What is the difference between learning and neuroplasticity to what degree are they terms that can be used as synonyms and are there any factors that are unique to one or the other

Learning and neuroplasticity are closely related but not synonymous. Here’s how they differ and overlap:

Definitions and Relationship

Neuroplasticity is the brain’s ability to reorganize and adapt its structure and function by forming new neural connections in response to experiences, environment, injury, or learning[1][3][4]. It is the underlying biological mechanism that enables learning to occur.
Learning is the process of acquiring new knowledge, skills, behaviors, or values through study, experience, or teaching[8]. Learning is a functional outcome that depends on neuroplastic changes in the brain[2][5][6].

Synonymy and Distinctions

The two terms are not true synonyms. Learning is an observable process or outcome, while neuroplasticity is the physical and biological process that makes learning possible[2][4][5].
All learning involves neuroplasticity, but not all neuroplasticity is learning. For example, neuroplasticity also occurs during brain recovery after injury, adaptation to sensory loss, or changes due to stress or aging—these may not always involve new learning[1][4].

Unique Factors

Unique to Neuroplasticity:
- Can occur in response to injury, sensory deprivation, or environmental changes, not just learning[1][4].
- Influenced by factors like age, sleep, exercise, diet, and stress[7].
Unique to Learning:
- Influenced by instructional techniques, motivation, prior knowledge, and psychological factors[8].
- Refers specifically to the acquisition and retention of information or skills, not just structural brain changes.

Summary Table

Aspect	Learning	Neuroplasticity
Definition	Acquiring knowledge/skills	Brain’s ability to change/adapt
Mechanism	Depends on neuroplasticity	Underlies learning, recovery, etc.
Synonymous?	No	No
Unique Factors	Motivation, teaching, context	Age, sleep, diet, injury, stress
Scope	Functional/behavioral	Biological/structural

In summary:
Learning always involves neuroplasticity, but neuroplasticity is a broader concept that also includes brain changes unrelated to learning. The terms are related but not interchangeable[2][4][5].

Citations:
[1] Neuroplasticity - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity
[2] Neuroplasticity: How the brain changes with learning https://solportal.ibe-unesco.org/articles/neuroplasticity-how-the-brain-changes-with-learning/
[3] The power of lifelong learning: neuroplasticity & the brain’s capacity … https://www.redandyellow.co.za/blog/power-of-neuro-plasticity/
[4] What Is Neuroplasticity? How It Works https://health.clevelandclinic.org/neuroplasticity
[5] Explaining How Neuroplasticity Helps Learning to Your Mom https://www.gemmlearning.com/blog/learning_science/the-neuroplasticity-and-learning-link-explained/
[6] Neuroplasticity in education: the impact on the learning process https://www.kinderpedia.co/en/school-and-nurseries-resources/blog/early-childhood-education/neuroplasticity-in-education
[7] What Factors Affect Neuroplasticity? - NeuroPraxis https://neuropraxis.com/resource/what-factors-affect-neuroplasticity/
[8] Learning - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning
[9] Learning without training - PubMed https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23743417/
[10] Neural plasticity of development and learning - PMC - PubMed Central https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6871182/
[11] The Combined Influences of Exercise, Diet and Sleep on … - Frontiers https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.831819/full
[12] The Science of Learning and Neuroplasticity - Brighter Minds https://www.brighterminds.org/post/the-science-of-learning-and-neuroplasticity
[13] Neurogenesis And Neuroplasticity: Similarities And Differences https://www.re-origin.com/articles/neurogenesis-and-neuroplasticity
[14] Neuroplasticity: Rewire your Brain for Learning, Memory, and Mood https://www.mindlabpro.com/blogs/nootropics/neuroplasticity-rewire-your-brain-for-learning-memory-and-mood
[15] Neurobiology of Learning - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/neurobiology-of-learning
[16] Neuroscience and Learning: Implications for Teaching Practice - PMC https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4089653/
[17] Introduction To The Neuroscience Of Learning - Seneca https://senecalearning.com/en-GB/blog/introduction-to-the-neuroscience-of-learning/
[18] Neuroplasticity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557811/
[19] Neuroplasticity: Learning Physically Changes the Brain - Edutopia https://www.edutopia.org/neuroscience-brain-based-learning-neuroplasticity
[20] The use of neuroscience in learning - Croner-i https://app.croneri.co.uk/feature-articles/use-neuroscience-learning
[21] [PDF] Overview of brain-based learning - The Open University https://www.open.edu/openlearn/mod/resource/view.php?id=25929
[22] What is educational neuroscience? http://www.educationalneuroscience.org.uk/about-us/what-is-educational-neuroscience/
[23] Neuroplasticity: How Experience Changes the Brain - Verywell Mind https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-brain-plasticity-2794886
"

Pando

Andrew

Thx for post. 3 things, Andrew

Based on my grounding / earthing journey, I strongly believe that a person who does not ground is full of inflammation in the gut. I certainly was, and still am ridding myself of background inflammation. This is the first concept my Radiologist friend spoke to me with regards grounding. As you suggest, & Moseley : Vitamin D helps a lot.

HIT does help BDNF, as does exercise & sleep

Re: learning, even changing habit, and forming a new habit involves neural activity ; everything we do shapes us & it’s all possible via plasticity. It’s effective immediately, even with the thought before the intent that follows. We reinforce the pathways and the new “WE” is formed… every day; transformation as you call it.

Thx 4 chat ; well done with your progress, R

Andrew

Simon There seems to be a lot of stuff detailing the fine difference between neuroplasticity and learning. There are 23 items! Must have taken ages. Sure, the one revolves around structural changes to the brain, while the other is learning, which is defined as stuff we may possibly verbalize or it consists of details of changes in our behaviour. However, in practice, they are essentially the same thing. They are simply called different things in different contexts and by different people such as teachers or therapists. Whatever is useful.

If you recall, I did say that the two concepts are related, and that making them equal is an approximation but a useful approximation. Their equality is a good first approximation to what happens, and I can’t be bothered with the fine detail! Life is too short!

Despite the academic background and the necessity of precision in that area, we are dealing with people of widely different backgrounds, and hence I choose not to be hung-up upon about semantics. (Note the choose.) These concepts (neuroplasticity and learning) are essentially equal. Also,we must include relearning in with learning, for most of us are trying to recover what we’ve lost due to the stroke.

Andrew

Pando Hi Roland,

Many thanks.

As you know, in addition to being a musician, I am also a scientist. In a sense I am of the worst kind, a sceptic! All this means is that I split things into one of three main categories. One of these is, complete rubbish. Another is, I go along with this and believe in it. Generally I will have proved these for myself, or regarded them as self-evident. The third, the sceptical side, I need to prove this for myself in order that I may assign it to one of the other two categories. With regard to the old view of, “you’re born with it, get used to it”, that is wrong. With regard to, the efficacy of neuroplasticity, I am convinced that it does affect us, and affects us more than we realise. With regard to grounding, I am sceptical, but only in the sense that it needs to be proved by me, otherwise I don’t yet have a definitive view on it.

It does seem to me that inflammation doesn’t happen very much to my biome, but I am happy to be proved wrong especially if I am offered the correct route!

Changing the subject, I am going to see if the trike can be used to get the three miles to the Bristol After-Stroke meeting this Wednesday, and if so, how long it will take. This is difficult to predict since roughly 0.8 miles of the 3 mile journey is relentlessly uphill - New Cheltenham! Apart from near Pound Lane, the pavement seems to be generously wide, so it is theoretically possible.

Andrew

Andrew Update on the trike journey from Warmley to Croft’s End.

Wow, does the camber of the pavement vary hugely, and it took all of my skill as a cyclist to stay upright and to predict the terrain soon to be under the wheels. Tree roots, car parking on the pavement, the occasional pedestrian (no problem with them…), the road crossings without the kerb being lowered, a bit of a nightmare! No rest, always alert. And yes, I did take one tumble when trying to cross the road without a lowered kerb. Still, it was done, I am essentially unscathed and it’ll be better next time.

Pando

Andrew That’s brave well done - we got our bikes serviced and I plan to give it a go on the Downs this Summer - a big step for me, but just a little go on the flat, short, grass. Your experience warns me not to underestimate this endeavor. I will have some help !

Andrew

Pando All I will say is that the cyclepath, which is tarmac, is ok because of the surface and it is almost flat, while pavements may be anything from ok to really bad. I suspect that short grass may well be ok, although the rolling resistance will be greater than tarmac.

Although you’re only 0.7 mile from the Downs, I am over 6!

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